Dr. Marc Lamont Hill is one of the leading intellectual voices in the country. He has hosted shows for BET News, The Grio, Al Jazeera, and the Coffee & Books podcast. He now offers information and perspective every evening with “Night School” on YouTube.com.
He engaged in an insightful one-hour interview July 11-12 with Naba’a Muhammad, editor-in-chief of The Final Call newspaper on Gaza genocide, Israel’s long oppression of the Palestinian people, why Americans should be concerned and significant changes in what he describes as a “longstanding one, but also a righteous” cause.
Dr. Hill holds a Ph.D. (with distinction) from the University of Pennsylvania. His current research and writing explore the relationships between race, culture, politics, and education in the United States and the Middle East.
Dr. Hill is the author or co-author of eight books available at www.marclamonthill.com. Follow @marclamonthill on “X,” and www.youtube.com/@marclamonthillofficial.
Below is the final excerpt from a three-part interview that has been lightly edited. The Final Call encourages you to read parts 1 and 2 in Vol. 43 No. 45 and Vol. 43 No. 46 or visit finalcall.com.
Naba’a Muhammad (NM) I want to stay on things kind of related to the U.S. and Israel and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. I read something that said these 500-pound bombs that America had stopped sending to Israel, there’s going to be a resumption of sending those bombs.
The other thing is, again, now reports about talks for a ceasefire, but it seems like one day the ceasefire is going to happen the next day, no, it’s not. Now some of the reporting is talking about Mr. Netanyahu’s opposition. What do you think about those two things?
Marc Lamont Hill (MLH:) A permanent ceasefire is absolutely necessary, and that’s just, but we can’t make that our political end game either, because a ceasefire would only take us back to Oct. 6, and Oct. 6 was still an unlivable condition for Palestinian people. So, we don’t want to do that.
But Netanyahu has a long history, so let’s say that, but we still need a ceasefire. Mr. Netanyahu has a long history of saying one thing domestically and another thing internationally for years.
For years he said he supports a two-state solution. He tells the country that. He tells the United States that. He tells the global community that. Whenever you watch him campaign or whatever, you listen to his speeches. In Hebrew, he says something very different. He says there’ll never be a two-state solution.
He’s very clear that he knows what plays internationally, but he knows how to keep his base happy by telling the truth. So when it comes to this issue, it’s no different. He says, yeah, I want a ceasefire. But he also says that we won’t stop until our military objectives are met.
That is a contradiction. You can’t say I’m down for a ceasefire, but only after we meet our military objectives. He’s saying, “I’ll stop fighting after I have nothing else to kill, nothing else to destroy.” That is not a ceasefire.
Right after Ramadan, there was talk of the ceasefire and he said, “I will do a ceasefire, but only after I invade Rafah.” At the time, Rafah had 1.5 million people in it because of all the overcrowding from people fleeing, there’s only 2.2 million in the whole Gaza Strip.
My point is he was going to do a military invasion that was going to cause mass destruction, humanitarian crises that we’d never seen before. And he said he had to do that before the ceasefire.
Netanyahu keeps conditioning his ceasefires on him being able to engage in mass acts of destruction. It’s a contradiction, and he continually makes provocative moves in the midst of a negotiation. For example, for the last week there have been negotiations taking place in Egypt and in Qatar for a ceasefire.
While those negotiations are happening, he invades Khan Younis, which is in the South. He invades Gaza City. They blow up, again, four schools. No one is going to trust your good faith if you continue to engage in these mass provocations in the midst of a negotiation.
Israel has a practice of negotiating that I said before, and I’ll say it again, if I say, “Brother Naba’a, let’s split a pizza.” And you say, “Well, how do we split the pizza, Brother Marc?”
And I say, “Well, let’s think about it. There’s multiple ways to split this.” And as I’m talking about how to split this pizza, I eat a slice. And then you say, “Well, brother, you eating the pizza, does that count as part of your portion?” I say, “Well, let’s keep talking. I’ll think about it.” I eat another slice. By the time we get to our final negotiations, I’ve had eight, but two slices are left.
You are like, “Well, I should get both of them,” which would be fair since I done ate the other eight. I go to the world and say, “Look, Brother Naba’a is so selfish. It’s two slices left. He wants both of them. Those Muslims are unreasonable.” That’s how Israel negotiates.
They call for ceasefires while killing people. They call for two-state solutions while expanding illegal settlements. They call for peace while provoking violence.
NM: Mr. Netanyahu will speak to the U.S. Congress on July 24, and he’s expected to bring some Jewish families who have suffered or are associated with suffering October 7. But there have been calls from Israel and in the U.S. calling for the speech to be boycotted.
Some members of the Congress, I’ve read, who have announced they will boycott the speech, are people like Senators Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, and Senator Chris Van Harlan, and Representatives Jim Clyburn and Ro Khanna. Some say the prime minister’s political and legal troubles are driving him to keep this war going. What are your thoughts on that?
MLH: There’s no doubt about it. Benjamin Netanyahu has the most unstable political position, maybe of any major nation in the world.
The way the Israeli government is formed is through coalitions. In order for Netanyahu to regain power, he had to form a coalition with the extreme right wing that believes in a doctrine of permanent war against the Palestinians.
Netanyahu is also facing many scandals and legal and potential criminal prosecution for his own alleged acts of corruption. So for Netanyahu to stay in power and stay out of prison, he has to stay in office, and the only way he can stay in office is to be a wartime president, a wartime prime minister.
If you remember before Oct. 7, there were protests in the streets of Tel Aviv. Even the Zionists were saying, “Get rid of Netanyahu!” The liberal Zionists were saying, “Get rid of Netanyahu!” The conservatives said, “Get rid of Netanyahu!”
They were marching in the streets as Netanyahu, just like Donald Trump, has attempted to remake and rebuild the country in ways that enhance his own power. Netanyahu was on his way out before this war. This war became an … excuse for Netanyahu to stay in office.
He has every motivation, every incentive, every incentive, to keep the war going. If you are an Israeli citizen and you want the hostages home, you’re mad at Netanyahu. But once the hostages are gone, it’s hard to keep justifying this fight. If you are a peacenik, you just don’t believe in war. You are mad at Netanyahu.
Or if you just think the whole economic, political and morals this is taking is too heavy, you’re mad at Netanyahu. But Netanyahu doesn’t care if he can keep all those people at bay as long as there’s a belief that he’s the only thing standing in the way of Hamas. This is what George Bush did when he was up for reelection.
He made sure that the world knew that there was still a danger in Iraq and Afghanistan and weapons of mass destruction and an axis of evil. He did that to make sure that John Kerry wouldn’t beat him in the 2004 election. The Doctrine of War works.
The Doctrine of Permanent War works. It’s a belief that if the country is always in a state of perpetual violence and always in a position of defending itself from these alleged threats, the public will eventually accept a nation that’s always fighting, always purchasing more weaponry, always prioritizing the military over education, housing, and healthcare.
They will sacrifice their own civil liberties and rights. This is all part of what it means to build a security state and to build a doctrine of permanent war. That’s what Netanyahu was doing. He and Trump and Bush, and to a large extent, Biden, all follow the same doctrine.
NM: Last question, is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you think we need to discuss or close with?
MLH: Yes. The victory is close. I think it’s important for us to realize that no matter how awful this moment is, it’s also a reminder that those who believe in freedom and justice are winning. It’s a slow struggle. It’s a long struggle, but it’s, it’s the one that we will leave victorious in.
There was a time where people thought that AIPAC was unbeatable, and then the Iran nuclear deal came under President Barack Obama. AIPAC was defeated. They thought that people like, our dear sister in Minnesota.
NM: Rep. Ilhan Omar.
MLH: Ilhan Omar, or Rashida Talib (D-Mich.), they thought that people like Rashida Talib and Ilhan Omar couldn’t win, would get taken out of their offices, that they could divide Black people and they could divide progressive people and win.
But AIPAC, again was defeated when they funded those elections, when they funded their opponents and still lost.
There was a time when you couldn’t say “Free Palestine” or when you couldn’t even say the name Palestine in public, and now people are doing it. The Democratic politicians remain cowardly, but there’s a lot more courage among them than we’ve ever seen before.
All around the country, students in college campuses have spoken up about this war, and they’ve presented righteous resistance.
The public sentiment, the public tenor is changing. There was a time when progressive Jewish voices couldn’t be heard. But now, groups like Jewish Voices for Peace are front and center. You have protests that say, “Not In Our Name,” our Jewish brothers and sisters speaking up against this imperial war. It matters. All of our work matters.
As Believers, as Believers, we are committed to the cause of Palestine because our faith is grounded there. Al-Asqa Mosque, in Jerusalem, was the first qiblah. It was the first place that the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, prayed to.
It was the site of his Night Journey. So, we have religious and spiritual reasons for struggling for Palestine, but that’s not why we do it. We do it because it’s a righteous fight. We do it because there is oppression. We do it because we have a duty to pursue justice everywhere.
As Believers, we have to, as the Qur’an says, hold onto the rope of Allah (God) and not be divided. When we hold on to the rope of Allah and are not divided, that means not just among other Muslims not to divide into different sects and competing camps, but it means that we have to connect across religion, across communities, across race, in the struggle for justice.
Anybody and everybody who believes in this struggle for liberation, and when I say liberation, I’m not just talking about the liberation of a Palestine. Again, the liberation of Palestine cannot be separated from the liberation of Sudan.
It can’t be separated from the liberation of Congo. It can’t be separated from the liberation of African people here in the United States through reparations. All of it is connected.
So, we must take the lessons of history and the victories of today and accept the calling, accept the charge, which is to struggle for victory, to struggle until victory. And I think victory is closer than it’s ever been. My brother, I really do. All praise is due to Allah.
NM: All praise is due to Allah. Thank you, brother, for your time. I appreciate it.
